Monday, January 15, 2007

The Controversy

So I'm sure most of you are aware of the current controversy going on with the sample from Timbaland's "Block Party" ringtone which was expanded and re-used to make Nelly Furtado's "Do It" The original track in question is called "Acid Jazz Evening" by the Finnish artist Tempest.

Apparently the track was made by Tempest in 2000 for a big demo party in Finland called Assembly. Tempest competed in a contest for music on old music platforms and entered his track "Acid Jazz Evening" The track won the competition and it seems from there, Tim used a similar track for his ringtone "Block Party". For more on the details of the story look here and here

This is the number #1 story on many sites and there are even different videos on youube.com regarding the comparison on the 2 tracks. What's happening though is people are starting to send hate mail to Tim's myspace and some pretty racist and ignorant comments have been posted on youtube and other sites. Of course it's the internet so people are going to say what they're going to say but all these comments over a sampled track? Have we really come to that?

I've known about this story since it began but didn't seem to the need to comment on it as I figured it would just blow over but having read what people have written, it's really scary how easily and quickly people can just assume one side of the story. Copyright laws are very tricky and vary from country to country. Production is also very tricky and there's a lot more to it then pushing a few buttons and making sounds. So how can people comment on either as if they're experts?

Was "Acid Jazz Evening" really made in 2000? Was Tempest paid or not paid for the track? Did Tim not know he was sampling another artist? Who knows, neither you nor I were there and we also don't know the details of what happened. All of these ridiculous remarks are based on one side of the story, no one knows Tim's side and until that side is given how can ANYONE comment on what was or was not "stolen" or "taken"?

I encourage all of you to rise above all the bullshit being written out there about this subject and to save your judgments until BOTH sides of the story have been told. When and if I get more information about this subject, you all will be the first to know.

One,
Boogie

61 Comments:

Anonymous Alex Niedt said...

I don't mean to fuel the fire, but technically is it still "sampling" when it's practically a 1/1 match?

1:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Was "Acid Jazz Evening" really made in 2000?
Considering it won Assembly2k Old School Music Compo, yes it was. At least I don't know any working time travel methods.

Was Tempest paid or not paid for the track?
He says he was not (see the Digg comments).

6:04 AM  
Anonymous n0t0 said...

Well, they do sound extremely similar and some might argue its the same song. He did change some sounds but when it comes down to it, its way to similar. I dont really know if he did it on purpose or not, but i doubt he did. He's sampled tons of tracks and not once has this happened. Perhaps this time he felt he could do it since it was a free track and because it wasnt known. I dont know, i just want to see the outcome of this.

8:42 AM  
Anonymous unreal said...

I can't believe some people question whether it's sampling or not on the method of sampling. Having a small voice clip from another song is sampling. Having a full percussion loop is sampling. So having a full melody loop is also sampling - what's so hard to see.

8:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Timb rarely samples in the classic sense. He straight up jacks! Ask his Ghost producers. lol

9:31 AM  
Anonymous n0t0 said...

^If that was the case, then this wouldve happened many times before. So i doubt it.

9:33 AM  
Blogger PHARRELLS FRIENDS said...

SAMPLING IS A PART OF HIP HOP SO JUST GET OFF HIS NUTS TIMBO IS STILL THE KING AND HE GETS THE MOST RESPECT AND ALL THEM NIGGAS SAYIN THAT SHIT ABOUT HE HAVING GHOST PRODUTION THERE IS A DIFFRENCE BETWEEN WORKING TOGATHER AND JUST TAKING SOMEONE SHIT AND SAYING ITS YOURS

10:16 AM  
Blogger PHARRELLS FRIENDS said...

FUCK THAT THE BEAT IS HOT HE MAD IT BETTER THAT DUDE SHOULD BE PROUD TIM EVEN TOUCHED THAT SHIT

10:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

lol^ sadly I agree

But boogie is right guys...how can you make an asumption when Tim hasnt even told his side of the story? Alot of these idiots are making fools out of themselves b4 they even know his side.

12:04 PM  
Anonymous Alex Niedt said...

I don't see how you can look at the evidence and still call that sampling. There's a difference b/t sampling a section and straight up stealing an entire song. I've heard the early ringtone version of the song was literally the dude's composition most likely with NO change whatsoever. That's taking someone else's composition and putting your name on it, not sampling. It's like jacking someone's entire beat...theft, not sampling.

But once again, who knows what the extent of Tim's knowledge is on this subject...

12:11 PM  
Anonymous Alex Niedt said...

What the hell, nevermind. The version someone posted elsewhere is different from what Boogie posted here. Now I'm completely confused...

12:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't Care, Tim is the shit. He lightens up my day with almost every track that he ever made.

TIMBO THE KING

2:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and people was saying all that kanye ever did was sample...

Timb is just taking it easy route to stay on the top. Living off samples to make hits. Cause as a producer its hard being original and constant with the Hits. We have all seen Timb grow up in the music and he has a slight cockiness these days? you never know.

But yes its about time stuff like this happens he samples too much!
He is just straight abusing it now!

3:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Boogie said:
"What's happening though is people are starting to send hate mail to Tim's myspace and some pretty racist and ignorant comments have been posted on youtube and other sites."

Some trolls use every occation available to front their views. I have myself been part of the demoscene for ages and not once have I experienced any racism there. I very much doubt the racist comments on YouTube come from sceners, but of course, you'll find assholes everywhere.



Boogie said:
"I've known about this story since it began but didn't seem to the need to comment on it as I figured it would just blow over but having read what people have written, it's really scary how easily and quickly people can just assume one side of the story."

I've been following this thing from the beginning as well. GRG is a good friend of mine, we've made tons of SID's together. Was "Acid Jazz Evening" really made in 2000? Yes, that's been proven. Was GRG's version (the one Timbaland used) really made (or released) in 2002?
Yes. it's been out on Internet archives for ages (http://hvsc.c64.org - they aim to collect all SID's ever released). You can download the complete package of all files or single update-packs. GRG's version was in update 34 (if I remember correctly, released in 2002).



Boogie said:
"no one knows Tim's side and until that side is given how can ANYONE comment on what was or was not "stolen" or "taken"?"

There is in my mind no doubt the SID was ripped. What I am _not_ sure about is who is responsible for this. I'm not so sure Timbaland is to blame. I guess he has a nice little crew working for him. It could've been anyone of them digging up the SID. And could it even be Timbaland passed on the sample info to the record company who in their turn forgot all about it?

It will be interesting to follow this story. And it will be very interesting to hear Timbaland's side of the story.



PHARRELLS FRIENDS said...
"FUCK THAT THE BEAT IS HOT HE MAD IT BETTER THAT DUDE SHOULD BE PROUD TIM EVEN TOUCHED THAT SHIT"

Right. Tempest and GRG should be proud while Timbaland makes millions on their work.

You don't strike me as the sharpest knife...

5:13 PM  
Anonymous Complex said...

Im just waiting to hear what tim has to say about it. even if it has a fucked up outcome *which im hopeing it dosen't* I really don't know what i would do. I have too much respect for the man and his craft ya know?

5:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Audio visual proof:

http://timbalandtempest.ytmnd.com/

I rest my case!

5:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

He changed the drums, he changed the whole bounce of the track, the basic melody line and buildup might sound the same, but this is a common thing. Producers go look in all kinds of forms of sound for new samples. If a whole host of C64 sounding sounds get posted, why is taking that worse then sampling James Brown (RIP)?

I know producers who look through midi files for good melodies and assign them to their synths. Why stay sampling vinyl?

7:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's a new piece of information, without any bias (atleast not from me).

Some fellow has claimed that the sample that we're all ranting and raving about was actually on a sample cd, most likely without the author's (whoever that is) knowledge. So it just might be Mr. Timbaland has actually paid for it, and there is a third party to blame. Check out the digg-forums.

2:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Even if it was released on that CD, I don't think that would help Timbaland much as it wasn't the original that was used in Timbalands production, it was GRG's version.

2:47 AM  
Anonymous unreal said...

Timbaland started as a sampler, and he will end his career on one. People trying to educate us about things we already know lol.

8:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"unreal said...
Timbaland started as a sampler, and he will end his career on one."

That's probably right. Now he will just have to get used to pay for the samples as well.

11:11 AM  
Blogger J-Boogie said...

Everyone go find and listen to the sample CD Ueberschall - 8 Bit Stylez

You'll be surprised at what you find....

11:20 AM  
Blogger Nick said...

i wish tim stole my stuff, forreal. i would be more than happy.

and it's not like tim is sittin back smokin a cigar countin the millions of dollars he made with the song....the song wasn't a single. the song doesn't have a video. it's just a track on an album, nobody was exploited.

1:18 PM  
Blogger Nick said...

and it aint sampled, either. it's replayed. that brings a whole nother idea to the table.

1:19 PM  
Blogger J-Boogie said...

Thank you all for your INTELLIGENT and coherent comments. I really do appreciate that!

4:56 PM  
Anonymous Helm from Hanover said...

I REALLY dont understand what all the fuzz is about !!! ?

You guys and a lot of ophter peoples oin the net are really arguing if Tim is talented at all? Just because of this one incident?
Well according to some peoples he was whack a long time ago, or ever since. But okay. He style doesnt need to please everyone.
BUT...
How come, ppl are hating him for using a SID Melody that would even get at least one/tenth the shine it gets now?
Somebody really is pissed because Tim used his Melody. WHY, cause he doesnt get paid for it? If that would be the only reason, then go see some Lawyers and get that shit straight. (or leave it)
OR is it because you think that his own abilities are insufficient so that he needs to steal other ppls compositions? Well if thats the only reason then go on and start with ppl like Puffy or every other onehitwonder that came out of some dumb casting show!
OR is someone because he feels that Tims shine belongs to him?
Because Tim is using HIS Talent to shine? Well I guess even without THIS one song, the Nelly F. LP would have been a success.
And I guess HE would not have been able to flip the Track in the way it used to be right now!

And even if Tim or some other arguable ghost producer would just have spoke some Intro words and COMPLETELY(literally) copied the track, with NO aditional Drums, or mixin, mastering and whatnot.
There still is more to the process of making a hot track out of it !!! Believe that!
Writing Lyrics, Finding harmonies fpr the lyrics, the whole recording process of those lyrics, and at the end promoting all the stuff is also the Job of a real Producer (the classical term).
Under all these criterias, we also find Puffy to be a producer. and a very good one, if your looking for 'hit'records.

Tim or someone else dug the melody, and saw a diamond in the rough. The scandinavian guy should take that as somewhat some kind of props. And what Tim then did, isnt sampling, WHO said that the only way to make a beat is by sampling or by composing?`
What about Remixes, remakes and cover versions?
And I'm just talking about the beat or instrumental right now, next comes the vocals(write,rec, etc), mixing, mastering, and the whole other stuff that you probalbly never heard of.

I remember the Knight Rider Theme, what about that one? should busta have rapped over the original Theme as it was? Go ask his fans if they wanted to hear it that way!

Even if there is little work to do with a song, STILL somebody has to do it.
And believe me, there is more to making a complete Song that sounds nice on every fucking kitchenradio than most of us can imagin or afford.

What about the MIA Studio Session?
We saw Tim at the end skipping through a bunch of 8 bit Melodies as him and MIA were talking about Sample CDs. I wouldnt be surprised if Tim or someone else also took the Doit Sample from one of these CDs.
BTW a frind of mine is in good terms with the makers of those Ultraschall CDs, I will ask him to get me some.

And one last thing, even if all those points above wouldnt apply, still he proved more than once, or more than 50 times, that he has the abilities to make dope tracks. And even if he never touch one single knob on an ASR10, Triton or MoPhatt he has the ear to decide which Samples might lead to a hit song.

I really cant understand the whole argument.
If its Money, see a lawyer, or leave it, if you cant afford it.
But dont think, that Tim or anyone else is stealing you money. If they wouldnt havve taken that sample, you would have been poor anyway. If you really deserve to get paid. Well then blame yourself for putting that stuff out in the net for free, as it is stated on Youtube.
With putting it out for free, you gave your okay, that anyone else can use it.
If you havent put it out for free, well then go sue Geffen. If they are to powerfull, then go blame their asses, but not Tims.
I bet if you would have wanted to get 5.000 Euros for the song they would have gave it to you. But since it seems, that there was no price tag on that melody, they just took it.

sry for the long post.I tend to think like a lawyer and want to get every possibility cleared.
btw my mother language is German not english, this is the reason why there might be so many grammar mistakes in this post. And its late here.

Greetings Helm

7:05 PM  
Anonymous Helm from Hanover said...

According to this line of arguments, that we whitness right now, you could also call Jimy Hendrix a biter or whatever cause he sung ALL ALONG THE WATCHTOWER.
Txt, Melody, Arrangement, he is a straight up biter, hn?
Oh no, he player it his self,hn?
Well, If you really look at the bodywork of compositions Timbaland has craeted, and HOW, then you really NEEED to see that using a sampler the way he does it, is an instrument. It takes some time to master that art. and it takes a another wholelot of time to develope a feeling for stuff that can later on live up to being a hot track.
AND !!! what about his beatboxing? have you ever heard some kind of weakass beatboxes by ppl that dont listen to Rapmusic? its a kind of feelinghow this musical genre has to sound ...right.
And its another thing to THEN be cutting edge and push the envelope.
Anyone who doubts that Tim did this many times is a fool and surely hasnt got a clue what Mainstream is, what boring Beats are and why LilJohn, ScotStorch or some Jermaine Dupri have got a specific sound that may once has been new, but fail to always come up with new ideas.
Storch, took a recipe that is SOO way played out, that I could vomit if I hear iot again.
Kettledrum plus some stacked claps. Fuck that!!!
Mysto and Pizzi, they had some new sounding beats. Bout I guess Puffy told them to take the safe route and stick with the mass, with the radio, and make some sure shots.
Beeing bold enough to try out new sounds is also a quality that not too many producers or beatmakers have these days. Especially when all Labels are in fear beacuse the music industry is on low budgets anyway, and they need safe hit records to provide for all the employes. ;-)
So I dont see why anyone would call Tim whack at all.
working with duranduran, coldplay, JT and especially Björk is not what I would have expected to hear from Jermaine Dupri.
so dont hate, celebrate!

7:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

LMAO u rock dude hahaha

-timbachick

7:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

yeah, Timbaland samples a lot.
It's a big part of his method.
(This exellent site shows us just how much Timbo samples, and its a LOT)...

My favorite is "more than a woman", there he uses a sample for "melody and chords". Still its his uniquee sense of rythm that make the track what it is in his wersion. (Not to forget the unique voice of Aaliyah).

I sure hope they find a solution so "tempest" is satisfied too.

The first thing u learn when u wanna publish music is :"clear ur samples" and "get permissions from owners of rights"....
Somebody didnt do their job right...

8:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nice of you to delete my comment.

1:06 AM  
Blogger Lang Huxley said...

Why are you censoring posts that actually have a reasonable counterargument?

1:07 AM  
Blogger J-Boogie said...

I have no problem with a good counter arguement it's the smart ass comments ingrained in the counter arguements that will be the cause of deletion.

Actually come to think of it, re-post it, I'll let it be but consider yourself warned....

1:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Ueberschall - 8 Bit Stylez" has been cleared by 3rd parties and the CD author himself: It is not the source of the jacking.

See here however:
Timbaland with sidstation
Still from this video
About SidStation: www.sidstation.com

1:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Was "Acid Jazz Evening" really made in 2000?
YES!
Was Tempest paid or not paid for the track?
NO!
Did Tim not know he was sampling another artist?
YES!
Who knows, neither you nor I were there and we also don't know the details of what happened.
I KNOW AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE.

1:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ERR....

Did Tim not know he was sampling another artist?
NO!!!
Did Tim know he was sampling another artist?
YES.

1:25 AM  
Blogger J-Boogie said...

Who has contact info for GRG and/or Tempest?

I'm happy to get their side of the story and will post it word for word on The Chronicles....

1:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Err, yeah. Look, I spent about 10 minutes on that post, copying, pasting, writing and checking sources and URLs (and thinking of clever smart-ass comments, of course) and I'm not bothering to do it again, especially when someone else already made my point about the "8-bit stylez" sample-CD not being the origin of the sample(s).

2:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

J-Boogie, there's a page with collected links to articles/forums/etc that has "information" concerning this issue. Can be found at http://www.pelulamu.net/timbaland/ don't take any of those as facts, they are still to be considered as rumours only.

Tempest has released "an official" statement at http://www.fairlight.fi/tempest/

GRG's comment can be found at http://tinyurl.com/36xfxo (link redirects to c64.sk-portal)

2:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And clickable links of the above:
http://www.pelulamu.net/timbaland/
http://www.fairlight.fi/tempest/
http://tinyurl.com/36xfxo

2:33 AM  
Anonymous unreal said...

I think Helm makes a set of very valid statements which many complainers simply ignore, and post "HEY GUYS TIMBO STOLE A TRACK CHECK THIS LINK" which we've seen one too many times.


Timbo has NONE OF THE TIME TO SEARCH FOR DEMOSCENE MUSIC FROM 7 YEARS AGO (or like 5-6, from the time the Block Party track was originally made). I assume someone handed it to him somehow after stumbling upon it and assumed it was royalty free as I've seen a lot of demomusic listed as royalty-free... which is the same association sample CD's use.

8:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Unreal: I have no idea what Timbo does or does not have time for. But I'm sure he knows that art in general is copyrighted UNLESS SPECIFICALLY STATED OTHERWISE. Most demoscene songs are freely downloadable, and some even editable as long as you give credit where credit should be given.

Your speculation that Timbaland prolly didn't have anything to do with the ringtone might very well be possible, i mean, in his shoes one might not have much time to concentrate on stupid ringtone-business.

However, someone at the company should have cleared the sample before publishing. Was it Timbo, someone working with him or someone else, I have no idea. But someone has failed, that's for sure.

10:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What I find funny is this extreme overprotection of Timbaland. Timbaland fans just can't accept the fact that he has made a mistake (I am saying he made the mistake as it is released under his name).

Arguments like "The SID sucks! Timbaland made it sound good!!" etc etc just makes me shake my head. Remember, Timbaland didn't think it sucked so maybe the original wasn't so bad afterall? And quite honestly, he hasn't done much with it, especially not the ringtone version which I have noticed a lot of Timbaland fans diggs (while the original still seems to suck).

Oh, I almost forgot the honor-argument. You know, the one where the kids say "Janne/GRG should be honored Timbaland would even touch that piece of shit. This is your 15 minutes etc.". First of all, no fame without credit (unless you make a little fuzz like what we have witnessed the latest days). Second, 15 minutes of fame is fine, getting paid is better. Why is it so hard to understand that even though you have released a song for free, it is still frustrating seeing someone else taking credit for it?

Then you have the copyright issue. I can understand the kids making the most noise on youtube and other forums don't understand the difference by free and royalty free, but do you seriously think Timbaland doesn't know the difference? I am quite sure that if he really wanted to find out if the MOD and the SID were royalty free, he would.
Some say that he might have been given these by ghost producers, but the more I think of it, the less I believe it. 1) Both the MOD (ringtone) and the SID (Do it) has been used. 2) Timbaland has the hardware to play the SID (the SIDstation) so it's obvious he has some interest in the SID music world. By the way, Ueberschall denies that these samples could've been found on their 8-bit Styles sample-CD, so there's another argument down the drain (I don't have the CD myself so I can't check it, but I take Ueberschall's word for it).

What do you think would happen if someone sampled a big portion of Do it, fooled around with it a bit but not so much that it wasn't obvious from where the sample was taken. Do you think Geffen/RIAA would just sitt on their asses? Of course they wouldn't. They would fight it with every means possible. So what's wrong with the reactions going the other way? Why should Janne/GRG sit on their asses? Just because Timbaland is famous? Just because they can't afford a lawsuit (though I dont think that's certain yet)?

Anyway, just my 5 cents.

11:29 AM  
Anonymous Fishinabowl said...

My opinion is that this is a blatant rip and infringement of copyright laws. No ifs and buts. However, the REAL root of this whole situation is the American Judicial system. Tiberland can afford to be a crook and rip this guy's work. I guess his view would have been: "well, if this crime ever gets discovered, I'll simply crush Tempest by countering EVERY suit he calls me up on" and he can afford to do that all day, week, month year and decade if need be. Tempest would barely be able to afford round one of a law-suit with Timberland without first re-mortgaging his home, pawning his wife and putting his kids on the game.

We can point the finger and flame Timberland all day but it’s a bit like a hamster in one of those wheels. It might feel good for the hamster but it not getting anywhere and it’s still locked in a pokey little cage. After all our ranting directed at Timberland, the loopholes of injustice will still remain and it'll only be a matter of time before another rich guy decides to whip his cock out and stick it right up the ass of some other poor unsuspecting guy - knowing that that guy will not have enough money to even bring him to the door of justice, let alone an actual courtroom.

Get smart people, this is not a narrow debate about Tempest and Timberland. It's about an entire justice system that allows rich people to exploit the poor any way they see fit! Shouldn't this story be being forwarded to every member of Congress..AS WELL AS RollingStone.com magazine, etc etc??? Ha, of course not, we're all ass-holes that keep every issue in society narrow and never see the bigger picture and what is causing it. So I guess Justice will remain in the hands of rich people like Timberland and what right have we got to complain?!

And don’t for one second think this trickery of injustice cannot be prevented, IF there was a will by the powers that be.

11:58 AM  
Anonymous Helm from Hanover said...

Yeah, I also read the story about the big pimpin sample.
Well that def sucked for the opposite party.
And even in this case with the DO it sample I have to admit that if I would have came up with the idea to the song then I prolly also would have been angry, because someone else is getting paper off of my tune, and I'm getting nothing.
I would surely then know, that, if Tim wouldnt have used my tune, then I also woulndt get money. But to be in an observer position while someone else is getting cake, and me not even beeing mentioned. Well that would suck.
I guess I have to agree.
I also guess it would be easier for Tim and the Label to give the author of the melody 5k and the whole case would be closed.
I can only assume that what happend is, that Tim got fond of those 8Bit styles, and thought, that it wouldnt bother anybody if he would take any of those tunes and use it. Because the Scene is too small and no one would care or be angry with him. or would even notice...
Tim or anyone else who found that song.

In the end I just wanted to show some of the possibilities that also might apply and that most of the arguments that I heard from Tempest/GRG protectors are somewhat stupid. not all!

Tim did alot to the song.
And I also didnt say that the orig. Track sucked, but it def wasn't ready for the radio and to be sung on! thats for sure.
Just this afternoon, I loaded all three songs into Cubase to compare them. I made all have the same speed and sliced the DoIt Song into its musical(!) elements. not regarding the lyrics.
There are basically just three types of loops!

Intro - just bass
basic part - melody
advanced part - with high Sounds

...oh yeah and theres a bridge part which is inspired by the tune but not directly sampled. I guess maybe Danja or someone played around here.

The orig Tune from Tempest consists of 8(!) different parts
I just say this because the YT-Vids lead to believe that they just completely took the whole song, just played the Drum along and have NellyF. sing to it.
This is def not true.(and as i posted already even THEN, it would mean some work) and at the end, they took it and made it what it is right now. A complete popsong.

I find this to be the classical way of sampling. Taking a part of a song and looping it.
The Bassline domintated part at the beginning of Doit also isnt part of the AcidJazz song in this kind of way.

So they changed the whole arrangement. One might argue if this is "work" but in the end you got to know what "works" on the radio and in the club, and with every musical project this is also a job that needs to be done. (Besides the fact that they did much more to the song!)

------------------------------

So after all I think Timbaland used two melodic parts of the song looped them, added his drums, recorded Vox, arranged the song and ...well YES, should pay the author of the song some money. YES.
But if it was free, then he didnt stole it, and he didnt copied the song!
I would appreciate if Tempest gets some cake too, and besides the money issue, I think Tim did well in using it the way he did. Which is not Copiying.

Some ppl here and in the forus talk like he isnt just ripping Tempest off, NO, he also does something that is somewhat morally corrupted if he is looping tunes.

I guess thats my main problem.
PPL not recocgnising that this is the common way in rap music. And if u think its not compareble to playing the piano or guitar is not of an interrest. If you compose your beats just by yourself, tahts great for you, but its also okay, this way arround. (okay if the Samples are cleared)

Stealing- because of the Sample Clearance, well we'll see about this point and what comes out, but

Stealing- in the sense of creativity and work he put in?
NOPE! everyone stating this latter argument surely never worked in a Studio or had an internship there.

I'll try to up a snapshot of the colored parts

4:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

YOU DELETING COMMENTS THAT ARE SOLID POINTS IF PEEPS CANT SPEAK THEY MIND THEN WHY HAVE T HIS I HERD LIKE 3 DUDES SHIT GOT DELETED J BOOIGE YOU CORNEY

4:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

he is write j do be actin stupid

4:31 PM  
Anonymous Helm said...

Hope this worked
1.Do it
2.Ringtone
3.Acid Jazz

We see that Do it consist of mainly three types of loops. That are

RED starting part, that has mainly just the bassline

Orange basic part, introducing the destinctive synth background sound.

BLUE part that adds a high playful additional melody.

Green is the bridge part, that has no direct counter part within the Original, but there is a part with a similar role, with different notes.
---
The ringtone misses the high second melody and just is a (badly)looped second orange part with the distinctive wobbly Synth.
It's slices are a little too short.
---
Acid Jazz. I just colored those parts that are somewhat of any relevance to comparing the Three Tunes. All those other grey parts were never used.note the orange part comes twice.
Just Take those 3 Parts in the middle and you have 'all you need', to arrange the song the way Tim and his studio Staff did it
nothing more required.
I dont get why ppl are saying he just stole a complete song. Just 3 Loops. AND BTW the green one isnt exactly the bridge part. But it contains the melody that the String-like Synth are playing during the Doit bridge part.
The bridge in the Acid JAzz Song, which is the 3rd Sliced part from the right, is one without drums too, but it plays a comletely different melody. It already contains Tempest playing around freely, in a way he continues from there till the end. Thats why I chose to see the other part starting arund 1:25 as the bridge part. Just for the melody, not for the role in the arrangement!
You'll see what I mean (and hear it)thats why its in a different green.

hopefully of interrest for anyone to get a better complete picture.

Me personally I started to like all two versions even more, then before. This song might be my favorite one for the rest of the week *g*
Thx Tempest and NellyF. ;-)

http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doit2ac6.jpg

so long, greetings from Germany,
Helm

4:53 PM  
Anonymous Helm said...

Maybe these too work

[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6400/doit2ac6.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[url=http://imageshack.us][img=http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6400/doit2ac6.jpg][/url]

4:56 PM  
Anonymous helm said...

well not quite as I wanted them to...

4:56 PM  
Blogger J-Boogie said...

I'm leaving this topic all week for everyone to vent and say what they need to say and then we'll move on so please feel free to share your opinions.

BUT

This isn't a Neptunes blog so save your Pharrell comments for one. "John Holmes" for mayor is not a "valid" point so it will be deleted. I don't run a forum, I run a blog. You can chose to comment or not, that's on you.

Race has no place in this discussion so any comments about race will be deleted.

Valid points are a lot different than running your mouth off just for the sake of being heard.

The discussion is great though please continue I'm happy to hear both sides...

5:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not gonna go too deep into Helm's comments for now, but I think we have quite a different view on what sampling is. I am no specialist on sampling at all. Some guy said above: "whit boys dont really know hip hop it wasnt made for them". Maybe so, still it's my favorite music genre, so if it's OK with you I'll listen to it anyway. Sorry for the digression, let me get back to the point which was sampling. As I said, I ain't no expert on sampling but I really thought sampling was about taking a piece of music, chop it, flip it up and around, shake it a little over your head, cook it for about an hour and a half at 180 degrees celcius until you finally end up with a piece that is pretty unique sounding. Of course you'll now and then recognize the original piece, but it has been going through a creative process to make it distinct and personal.

In my opinion Do it has not been through that process. I mean, there's atleast 16 seconds of Acid Jazzed Evening running constantly in the background that hasn't been altered at all (except for speeding up a notch and minor things like that). Like Helm pointed out, \tThere's three sections of the song where that loop is not running, the intro, the bridge and the outro. Of course, he's added a drumbeat, vocals and a bass (I assume he's added a bass, I'm on a laptop here with really really crappy speakers so I couldn't tell a SID bass from a real bass here :/ ), but the feel of the song comes from these 16 seconds. And 16 seconds of unaltered sample, isn't that quite much? To me that is a lot.

What I find interesting with this whole story though is the extreme crash of cultures. On one hand you got the demoscene where everything is free (no, NOT royalte free! ;)). It's not about selling and making money. It's all about trying to make something unique that nobody has seen or heard before. The only thing in that culture which is not accepted is ripping. If you're caught ripping you're outed in notime. On the other hand you have the hiphop/rap-culture where sampling plays a major role. I guess it's no secret I represent the demoscene-side of this but hiphop/rap is as already mentioned my favorite genre. When these two worlds collide it's not difficult to pick side when Timbaland did what I would call a lousy job. The worst part is, if Timbaland had just credited Tempest & GRG, I don't think this would have been a case at all today. The demoscene is all about credit and respect.

6:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

when boogie gonna have another topic cause this shit is over tell tim says something is there any other timbaland news how about a czar sample of the week or something cause everybody just saying the same thing there just on one side or the othere we really cant judge cause we dont have tims response does timbalandchick know anything more into it is this it we all making it deep but we dont really know the true story

7:16 PM  
Anonymous Helm said...

hehe, Funy enough, that THESE Things were once also very important in the HipHop Culture too. They still are when it comes to Graff Stuff but their importance seems to fade when it comes to Rap.

I also think that the names of the Demosceners should apear in the booklet. and that they should get their share.

But lets not suppose Timbaland had bad,cruel, evil intentions and that he blatantly tried to safe money here. I guess he doesnt need to, cause he has enough.

Sampling. There is no Rule to what sampling cotains of.
But if you like a certain section of a song and you want to reuse it, you might, cut that part out, loop it, chop/slice it up and change the order of those Slices or you just use one soundbit, like a horn stab or a drum.
There was no sampling in the beginning when PPL decided to design a sampler!
They built one and later came various ideas as to to what you could use that device.
Not only to emulate a guitar by just having one single String sampled and the sampler pitches the tone for every key on your keyboard, but also for longer parts, where you might capture a jingle or whatnot.
I know that you are familiar to what sampling means, but lets see it as it is.
If you CAN sample it, why not do it in the way you like it.
By experimenting your pushing the envelope.(like sampling baby screams and using that in your beats)

And if you just capture a loop out of a song its okay.
If you have a problem calling it sampling call it looping or whatever. But I guess it works for the audience. And I think its important to see what the outcome is, not so much how you did it. Many classic Songs are cosist only of 3 riffs and no great voice at all. They probably have been written in half an hour but it works for the fans.
And I think with Rapmusic its the same, you dont need to, but you can use things that have been there before and create a new song, with which you are part of it, signing/rapping.

but I guess some ppl might have a problem with calling NellF's LP Rap. Including me.
But thats where Timbaland came from. ...and thus his Workflow.

The racist agrument. Well I guess we dont need to go into that.
Ask Bubba or Timbaland about that, then we'll talk.

7:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The racist argument? Was that for me? I can't recall having said anything that could be interpeted as racism.

7:39 PM  
Anonymous helm said...

Not you anonym the other anonym :D
Dont mind that statement. It was insulting and SO wrong.

2:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

give us some new news...damn..im gettin tired...

1:12 PM  
Anonymous n0t0 said...

^yea i agree. this isnt really that big of a deal.

4:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That's cool, Helm :)

By the way, interesting writing you did about sampling.

By the way, a quite interesting article on this whole story that was just released:

http://www.c64audio.com/timbaland.php

4:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i don't see y these demoscene idiots are making a big deal about someone who doesn't want to sue someone. U look like a bunch fools. I could see if he was trying to raise money to pay 4 lawyer fees but Mr. Tempest isn't doing anything at all. So in result it makes these Demo Sceners look like a bunch of buffoons wih all those stupid and racist comments. Timbaland next to Dre is the illest hiphop prodecuer ever but yo even the greatest make mistakes.

10:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the previous Anonymous:

Actually, Tempest is consulting a lawyer, as is GRG. These things just take some time. And Geffen/Timbaland will probably not make an official statement before Tempest takes the issue further.

Although, this thing now hit Rolling Stone's frontpage. OMG, as they say in the internets.

-JJ

11:16 PM  
Blogger michael said...

timbo needs to make a statement asap.

i know that he can't really talk about something when a legal challenge is expected.

but the sooner he says something, the less damaging it will be to his rep.

i can see why people are not impressed. particularly with the ring tone "block party" because he basically added nothing to what he took, and said it was his.

7:23 PM  

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